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Post by phoenixlazarus on May 5, 2020 22:13:33 GMT
This case already features on this forum in a listing for January 1985, when Peter Murray, Michael Bailey, John Bannister and Michael Howe were jailed for the murders of two young young men. By chance, I've come across some more information on this case, which I include in the links below. link1
link2
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2020 2:56:50 GMT
Cheers. Fascinating to see another perspective on it. I have the files, (just checked, all of them, since 13/12/2014!! and still not done it) but its really long and complex (3 files + 1 file but no photos), not easy to follow at all (550+ sheets of handwritten statements, not typed, always hard reading, often totally illegible), but its always been a 'must do' when I have the opportunuty, which wont be anytime soon. The photos of the murderers on the links are really sinister looking. Just strikes me that everyone would have been familiar with that when it happened. But now, most people don't even know where Buxton is, let alone the Goyt Valley or anything the murders. www.blackkalendar.nl/c/5303/Peter%20Reid%20MurrayI added a bit extra from the files, Bannisters confession in the police van back to Buxton. I have J 287/262/1-3 but looks like J 287/262/4 is closed until 2065, and that probably has the photos, and the statements with all the this it appears they did. I have had a brief look at J 287/262/1-3 and its all handwritten, and hard to see, but I guess J 287/262/4 has the 'copies' ie the typed up stuff, plus the statements from the four tried. Thoses statements will be the most 'insightful' if you could call it that. Safely locked away probably for good reason. More closed extracts here: J 82/4304/1
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Post by phoenixlazarus on May 6, 2020 10:39:45 GMT
Cheers. Fascinating to see another perspective on it. I have the files, (just checked, all of them, since 13/12/2014!! and still not done it) but its really long and complex (3 files + 1 file but no photos), not easy to follow at all (550+ sheets of handwritten statements, not typed, always hard reading, often totally illegible), but its always been a 'must do' when I have the opportunuty, which wont be anytime soon. The photos of the murderers on the links are really sinister looking. Just strikes me that everyone would have been familiar with that when it happened. But now, most people don't even know where Buxton is, let alone the Goyt Valley or anything the murders. www.blackkalendar.nl/c/5303/Peter%20Reid%20MurrayI added a bit extra from the files, Bannisters confession in the police van back to Buxton. I have J 287/262/1-3 but looks like J 287/262/4 is closed until 2065, and that probably has the photos, and the statements with all the this it appears they did. I have had a brief look at J 287/262/1-3 and its all handwritten, and hard to see, but I guess J 287/262/4 has the 'copies' ie the typed up stuff, plus the statements from the four tried. Thoses statements will be the most 'insightful' if you could call it that. Safely locked away probably for good reason. More closed extracts here: J 82/4304/1 Do you have these as computer files? If so, I'd be interested to see them, if you could send me copies. I'm good at deciphering handwriting, so might be able to help there.
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2020 11:27:36 GMT
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Post by liferreilly on May 6, 2020 11:38:09 GMT
Hi Phoenix I know a little about the case, though nowhere near as much as admin will, having the files. There's very little online about it, but in the british newspaper archive it mentions the previous case Murray was locked up for - Robbery and assault on two older ladies. Looks like he was part of a 'gang' for that crime too. Recruiting people younger than him seems to have been his m.o. After his release, the level of offending seems to have jumped off the scale. That's my solitary comment on the goyt valley website (jb). A lovely part of the world, but always gave me the creeps when walking around there - a a bit like Saddleworth moor. With reference to Admin's comment about closed case files. I always found it strange that some case files are closed for decades, yet murderers in these cases are let out! It's okay for killers to be released on to the streets, yet case info is not allowed in public domain? Anyhow, down from my soapbox!
kind regards John
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2020 12:46:07 GMT
Hi Phoenix With reference to Admin's comment about closed case files. I always found it strange that some case files are closed for decades, yet murderers in these cases are let out! It's okay for killers to be released on to the streets, yet case info is not allowed in public domain? Anyhow, down from my soapbox! kind regards John Phenominal observation that had not dawned on me before. Maybe murders should be sentenced to eternity in the NA vaults?
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Post by liferreilly on May 6, 2020 15:15:32 GMT
Hi Admin, Look at the Colin Pitchfork case for example. It's closed in the archives till 2087. Yet it seems he's already on day release and getting ready for permanent release (if it's not already happened) The reasons for the opening date exemption are health and safety and personal information. I can totally understand the victims family not wanting horrific details in the public domain. Though in my opinion, not disclosing information seems to be more for the benefit of the perpetrator, than the victim or their family. A while ago, I signed a petition to keep Pitchfork inside. The victims friends and family are clearly and rightly upset and angry over the idea of his release. Yet the justice system doesn't seem to be listening to their concerns. Makes me wonder who they're really trying to protect? I'm not sure how long cases should be kept closed for. Each case is different and treated so. Though we do need case studies/information for policing; law; psychology etc. So i suppose it's a bit of a balancing act.
kind regards John
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Post by phoenixlazarus on May 6, 2020 16:03:10 GMT
How much did it cost to order the files on the Goyt Valley case?
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2020 20:43:15 GMT
How much did it cost to order the files on the Goyt Valley case? You go there in person and can read/copy them for free. They are shut at the moment due to coronavirus. Yan can request they make a copy, but they cahrge £1 a page I think and I don't think that is open at the moment either.
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Post by Admin on May 6, 2020 22:02:17 GMT
Hi Admin, Look at the Colin Pitchfork case for example. It's closed in the archives till 2087. Yet it seems he's already on day release and getting ready for permanent release (if it's not already happened) The reasons for the opening date exemption are health and safety and personal information. I can totally understand the victims family not wanting horrific details in the public domain. Though in my opinion, not disclosing information seems to be more for the benefit of the perpetrator, than the victim or their family. A while ago, I signed a petition to keep Pitchfork inside. The victims friends and family are clearly and rightly upset and angry over the idea of his release. Yet the justice system doesn't seem to be listening to their concerns. Makes me wonder who they're really trying to protect? I'm not sure how long cases should be kept closed for. Each case is different and treated so. Though we do need case studies/information for policing; law; psychology etc. So i suppose it's a bit of a balancing act. kind regards John They don't have a clear method and their reasoning makes no sense. Often they close one file, typically the DDP range whilst leaving a parallel file, maybe the J series or ASSI files open. They contain virtually exactly the same information, except the DDP files in theory might contain some social reports. For example, fourth case I tied: www.blackkalendar.nl/c/6577/b/DPP 2/4989 - Closed until 2049 ASSI 6/636 - Open ASSI 6/636 contained photos and all sorts. I would wager that there is no difference. From experience, the DDP files usually contained just that little bit more when you were looking for intersting stuff, but in most cases were exactly the same. I would guarantee that they dont know why one is open and the other closed. This difference leads you to wonder what reason they have for any file being opened or closed. One reason that I was given when considering the wholesale 'review' of DPP 2/4000 6000 range give or take, mostly open files that are CLOSED and under review, with no given reason, public documents that are not public for no reason that is other than a review started 5 years ago, was that someone in them might still be alive. I pointed out that virtually any document in the National Archives after 1940 might contain details of a living person. Made no sense. They closed virtully all DDP files from about DPP 2/5300 onwards, maybe some backwards too, for example, DPP 2/5300/1 - 'This record is closed whilst access is under review'. It was officially opened on 21 December 2005. They closed it as I a 'methodically' trawling through them, one after the other, doing bulk orders DPP 2/500-50, DDP 2/550-600 etc etc, then bang, all of them were shut, about 3-4000 files whilst they reviewed their access. I complained and suggested they were closing them because I was sucking them all up like the cookie monster in a warehouse of free cookies, but they denied it. I have a lengthy and heated argument over it, but they assued me it was nothign to do with me and it was just some internal issue. Internal issue? Its open to the public and then without reason they close thousands of public records with no reason. In theory that should have been a public outrage, public information no longer public without good reason. However the irony was that I 'switched' to the corresponding ASSI and J records, all of which were, and are still open. However, many of the files I have accessed have since been closed. I can understand its all sensitive information in some regard, however, its public information. Strikes me that public information is fine, as long as the public don't access it. www.blackkalendar.nl/c/25572/Bertram%20Lund%20HolmesJ 291/244 was open, now closed whilst access reviewed. discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11606060The term 'This record is closed whilst access is under review' is just a 'pausible deniability' term for 'we changed our mind'. I would not have a problem if they said that, the problem is that they are lying. They have just closed it, and they probably have no 'review' in progress at all or any reason to review it or plans to ever open it again. I think the background to it is that anything 'interesting' like the Colin Pitchfork case is closed because people might 'profit' in some way, but that they don't knwo what else is 'interesting' as they got little coverage at the time. Some of the stories, whilst mundane, are incredibly interesting. The brutality of the incidental logic in the Geoffrey Middleton case, J 291/244, is astounding. They didn't know, so it was open, when they figured it out, they shut it. Its hardly earth shattering, but its not mundane, and I thik thats why it was closed. Heres a classic Tom Burns: ASSI 52/976 DPP 2/2826 ASSI 52/976 was open in January 2014, whilst DPP 2/2826 was closed. Its now also closed.
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Post by liferreilly on May 7, 2020 10:25:23 GMT
Hi Admin, Thanks for taking the time to post that reply and for your knowledge and insight on the National Archives cases.
I've been reading in the newspaper archive about some of the cases you've mentioned: George Thompson blamed the murders on LSD. I'd agree if it stood for Lying, Sick Deviant. A classic controlling, jealous, psychopath that one. Case closed for another 29 years. It'd be interesting to know how long he actually served. Releasing killers yet keeping info about them locked up. The priorities are mixed up.
The Geoffrey Middleton case is intriguing. Lawrence confessed three years later, on Christmas Day. Maybe he had a ghostly visitation in the wee small hours! Sounds like a dark soap opera and messed up menage-a-trois that story.
I'm glad you managed to get copies of the files, before the NA closed some of them. I agree with you, it's public information. I don't see a valid reason for them doing so. Even if people did want to profit from the case files, people should be able to write real crime stories if they choose. The truth is always stranger than fiction. Crime stories have been a curiosity since the Victorian Era - it's tradition! I'd bet with the files you have, you could write a book on the lesser known, barely heard about crimes. That'd make fascinating reading. Then again, you probably have your hand full with maintaining the website. Anyhow, keep up your good work
cheers John
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Post by phoenixlazarus on Jun 18, 2020 22:51:55 GMT
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Post by liferreilly on Jun 19, 2020 12:26:29 GMT
Surely that has to be the same person? In a newspaper article dated Monday 19th August 1974, it lists his age as 26 (Coventry Evening telegraph) when he was up on a charge of robbery. I'm not in favour of murderers being able to change their names. The Barry Williams / Harry Street case springs to mind. The authorities, police and his neighbours had no idea about his past.
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Post by Admin on Jun 19, 2020 15:57:52 GMT
linkConsidering you got that link I think it maybe reasonable to upload this, Form 5089, for the benefit of the thread. I am not in the habit of 'sharing' files, but I think its within reasonable fair use in this context. But yes, you will note in the top left that the birth dates match. I have seen thousands of these forms and variants. So they look common place to me, but maybe some people have never seen one. They are the first thing, and sometimes the only thing I look for in a file. Depends on the years though. Didn't have them in 1840.
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