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Post by Admin on Aug 23, 2020 20:08:44 GMT
linkInteresting article for the serial killer obseesed. What I find intersting is how the murder suicide paradign is a good cover for murder. How many other murder suicides match the pattern? (not connected) For example, this morning I laboured through this seemingly boring and closed case: link
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 23, 2020 22:21:38 GMT
.... yes the Home Office have recorded this as Code 32 - Murder and Suspect Died, so they wouldn't record is as Unsolved as the Coroner's Jury recorded that Pettit was the killer ....
if there's a way of sending s/sheets to u - I have two from HO - All MURDERS 1946 to 1956 and ALL HOMICIDES 1957-1976 (ENGLAND & WALES) - sadly latter doesn't have killers' names but does have victims ....
matthew:)
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Post by Admin on Aug 23, 2020 23:27:54 GMT
.... yes the Home Office have recorded this as Code 32 - Murder and Suspect Died, so they wouldn't record is as Unsolved as the Coroner's Jury recorded that Pettit was the killer ....
if there's a way of sending s/sheets to u - I have two from HO - All MURDERS 1946 to 1956 and ALL HOMICIDES 1957-1976 (ENGLAND & WALES) - sadly latter doesn't have killers' names but does have victims ....
matthew:) Yes, I love data. Just one more wafer thin spreadsheet please. you can send it to me@blackkalendar.nl
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 24, 2020 13:17:42 GMT
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Post by Admin on Aug 24, 2020 16:09:23 GMT
Cheers, I see the second one is a list of all the people executed which I pretty much have but the main one is pretty interesting and should compliment that period nicely, cheers.
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 24, 2020 17:53:44 GMT
.... sent the second - despite size appears to have gone through - it's a bit more than people executed - prob. about 30 cases (1957-1964) - it's 8,500 cases:)
m:)
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Post by Admin on Aug 25, 2020 0:32:01 GMT
.... sent the second - despite size appears to have gone through - it's a bit more than people executed - prob. about 30 cases (1957-1964) - it's 8,500 cases:) m:) Cheers. Looks extensive, but I know one thing for sure and thats that it will be a long time before I go through it with any momentum. I have looked at one record: 690199 Bates Jean Millicent 18 F 21 5 05/09/1969 Cumbria 31 42 3 03/11/1969 5 5 And its not on the site. Clearly its going to have to be gone through, one row at a time, about 8,500 rows, at an average of 5 minutes each = 685 hours, at say 4 hours a day (spare time) = 171 days.
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 25, 2020 16:36:37 GMT
yes it is a beast - I'll leave it with u:)
matthew:)
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Post by Admin on Aug 25, 2020 16:39:48 GMT
yes it is a beast - I'll leave it with u:) matthew:) Is this from the HO reference you gave or is this someones work from that period? Whats the original sourse?
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 25, 2020 17:23:12 GMT
The HO sent them to me years ago c. 2000-2005 (It predates FOIA (2000) really coming into effect)- I think it was them putting paper records on to a computer. With all homicides in England & Wales the HO Stats unit would receive a sheet at various points - murder, conviction, inquest etc. from the police .... These were all put into big-files etc etc .... I think now to get it u would have to do a FOIA request .... I think victims would be OK - don't think they'd name the killers - hence with me the second one they took off the killers, where as the older one they left them on ....
Obviously with BNA and indeed, TNA, website, logically I don't see why u shouldn't have all homicide victims from the HO right up to do date - and again killers - not sure what the logic of not naming them is as they are named at point of conviction ....
HO in terms of TNA is stuff the HO sent them - here I mean to mean the Home Office ....
m:)
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Post by Admin on Aug 25, 2020 19:53:50 GMT
The HO sent them to me years ago c. 2000-2005 (It predates FOIA (2000) really coming into effect)- I think it was them putting paper records on to a computer. With all homicides in England & Wales the HO Stats unit would receive a sheet at various points - murder, conviction, inquest etc. from the police .... These were all put into big-files etc etc .... I think now to get it u would have to do a FOIA request .... I think victims would be OK - don't think they'd name the killers - hence with me the second one they took off the killers, where as the older one they left them on .... Obviously with BNA and indeed, TNA, website, logically I don't see why u shouldn't have all homicide victims from the HO right up to do date - and again killers - not sure what the logic of not naming them is as they are named at point of conviction .... HO in terms of TNA is stuff the HO sent them - here I mean to mean the Home Office .... m:) FOI requests are the biggest joke ever. Essentially its a mechanism designed to prevent giving information out. All they have to do is cite 'personal information'. I have a built in system for sending out emails requsting updates on cases and invariably they would refuse saying its personal information. In the past you could walk into a police station and ask if the death of someone was solved and they would have a think and give you an asnwer. Its common sense. I havnt tried too much as I dont want to antagonise the police, but I could sent out literally thousands of requests for progress on unsolved deaths over the last 20 years, especially last 10 years, and they dont say anything. For example, 2015 death of Tania Abram, suffocated after a fall. Nothing in the newspapers, possibly not hmicide, but I suspect if I sent an email to Blackpool police, they would treat it under the FOI and then refuse to anser stating it was 'personal' information. Years ago I might expect a police person to be helpful and give me an asnser, such as it was considered not suspicious. You can see thi in the unsolved for around 2000, lots of Met FOI declaring unsolved cases, but if you request info, they refuse stating its personal. www.unsolved-murders.co.uk/murder-content.php?key=377#browseI tried for a few and gave up. I sometimes track those MET cases down and sometimes they are proper murders and sometimes they are dubious cases such as a drugs overdose or something that was first thought suspicious and then not. Seems to get a respnce from a FOI request you have to be a newspaper else you are not worthy of a responce. The only FOI I have seen is someone asking what prisoners eat for christmas dinners. Whats the point of that? FOI at TNA is similarly a joke. For example: discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13441863THis has a Submit FOI Request next to it. But after 5 months they will let you know that you cant see it because of personal info. I might understand on that record as its not that old, but it is on all closed records, some going back past the 1940s. Theres no logic to it at all. I personally dont quibble to much on TNA documents that are closed as there are so many tat are open, but they are closing lots and lots that were open for some unknown reason.
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Post by matthewspicer on Aug 25, 2020 20:25:12 GMT
1) Yes before the FOIA it was much more open - undoubtedly - when I was first went to TNA in 1996 they were routinely opening murder files inc. photos after 30 years - now that has stopped .... 2) Yes there is no logic (i.e. TNA files) except I guess in this digital age info/police photos gets much more easily spread (and the sheer size of the files - by the late 1970s even a simple murder will have an enormous amount of info.) - but like u I don't quibble as so much is open and I have done over 1,600 cases for the True Crime mags (and amassed so much info) so now after 30 years of being interested in subject I don't mind - plus BNA has opened up so much stuff - plus we have that d-in-c stuff from 1978-2014 (How did that creep through - LOL:) m:)
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Post by liferreilly on Aug 25, 2020 20:43:25 GMT
Chris Clark wrote a book a few years ago about Peter Sutcliffe. It looked into unsolved murders in the 1970s that PS may have been responsible for. The 1981 Byford report about Sutcliffe, has a few pages that are exempt from FOI requests, due to "personal information" There is a record of Clark's correspondence with FOI on the link below. They seem to stall and delay responses automatically. www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/unreleased_pages_of_byford_reporThe missing pages contained thirteen other attacks that the report thought may have also been carried out by Sutcliffe. I seem to remember reading another FOI request which asked if Sutcliffe's dna was on the database. They would neither confirm nor deny if i remember correctly.
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